tune questions

[SONICept]

ok back in may i took my car to a "famous" local tuner here in so-cal..
it didnt go so well the car wouldnt go past 5000rpm the bottom end tune clean up alot but when it began to spool it would go no were the afr's went from low 11's to spiking to high 15's and we stopped the session according to the emb the injectors were at 99% at 5k rpm.. since then the car's been down since i was upgrading the fuel system again cuz the car was extremely lean based of that dyno session.. so on thursday of last week after reading alot of info on here TO.COM tgtt and wheelsjamaica i got an itch to mess with it again..

so come to find out as soon as the emb was uploaded i saw the maps and the settings and i saw that the tuner had input that i was on 440's instead of 550's so the question to all is would that manipulate a different duty cycle or pulsewidth or injectors timing to the stock ecu by it telling it its on 440's instead of the 550's and the max duty cycle was maxed out..

i have a short vid of one of the pulls and you can clearly hear the motor wanting to "go" and all the flats spots in it and the sputtering at 5krpm..
it made 200hp @5k and spiking to 14psi i also noticed he clamped the map voltage to 3.44v all the way across the board.. any inputs gladly appreciated thanks guys..

[Accord2nrz]

flatening out and sputtering is definitely a fueling issue but it more or less a rich condition. Lean would lead to detonation. At least that's my impression without seeing the vid and the data. What are you factory injectors rated at and what are you currently running?

[Turbineguy]

While I'm not too savvy on the EMB in particular there seems to be some issues here I may have some input on.

First off the MAP sensor is one of the primary inputs for the ECU to determine fueling requirements. It works on a 0-5 volt scale and needs the whole range available to reference the right table numbers. If it's clamped at 3.44 volts that removes a large portion of the working range of the MAP since it tends to work on an exponential scale. If it's set at that voltage and cannot go up or down then you might as well not even have it in there.

As far as injectors go if you tell the ECU your running 440s and your running 550s the ECU "should" run higher IDCs to provide proper fueling. The result is a rich condition based on improper injector scaling numbers.

I think what your seeing is two issues. The surging under 5k is probably due to over fueling with the ECU trying to compensate causing the AFRs to jump back and forth and falling flat above 5k is due to the MAP being clamped too low.

Like I said I'm not too good with EMB but it's just my .02 worth.

[SONICept]

it was definately a lean condition the plugs were whiter than white can be!! ill try to post up the maps and video clip.. thanks guys.. everything appreciated

also how would i go about cutting and pasting the maps on here aswell cant seem to do it..

heres the video clip

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t341/hammerdyoda/th_randompics625.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/albums/t341/hammerdyoda/?action=view&current=randompics625.flv)

[Turbineguy]

The lean indications can be attributed to the leaning out above 5k rpm. This will rapidly clear any carbon buildup on the plugs. The dips your seeing can be caused by momentary rich spikes or rich spots in the tune and won't necessarily foul the plugs.

[SONICept]

true cuz it sounded like rich then lean and so on..
any tips on how to put the maps up on here??

[Turbineguy]

File host through Photobucket.com

[Dzaster]

Haven't had a chance to read through this yet Manny, but if you need, you can email the map to me at dzaster96799@yahoo.com and I'll get that up for you and post a link here.

[Dzaster]

I'm with TG on the map clamping so early. You take out a good portion of the MAP's communication with the ECU so you don't get that timing and fuel adjustment as would up to say 4.4V--where I run mine and is around fuel cut on our cars. I just like the ECU to be able to control timing and fuel as much as possible in that upper few extra PSI. However, I've found that tuners often do clamp it around there, but I think it's because they have the tools to check timing advance, listen for knock, and accurate AFR readings.

The stock injectors for Manny's setup is 295cc. Wait, Manny, are you using 4efte electronics as well? If so, its 295cc stock. Entering 550 in the injector auto correct SHOULD not make much of a difference since the auto correct feature is already nearly maxxed out with its 150% larger injector upgrade correction capability(long winded lol).

So 295 + 147.5 = 442.5cc

^^^ That total is the largest injector the 4efte ECU will correct automatically. The rest would need to be removed with the Airflow Adjustment Map(AAM)--which for us sucks because we don't have a variable TPS to wire into the EMB. So the only way to use the AAM is to enter the same value in the whole column as it'll reference it based on RPM. I find this only useful for trimming back rich idle and pre-boost range.

[SONICept]

hhmmm so the 750's i plan to use on it will be kinda crazy on there???

also not too sure if this will work i found a 12v to 5v voltage regulator which can handle an input v of 6 to 24v dc and output is 5v dc 100mA 1Amax (need a bigger heatsink for higer current would we be able to run this with a universal variable tps or a toyota or whatever to trigger the emb for a tps source.. it could run of the car's charging system and used for that purpose???

so if theres really a stump in the road for what i plan to do should i just upgrade to a stand alone or the emu???

also dzester cant seem to grab that map to email to you how would i do that?? :confused:

[Turbineguy]

Honestly for what your trying to do a standalone would be your best bet. I've never been a fan of any kind of piggyback. The whole job of a piggyback is to lie to the ECU to get what you want and you then have deal with not only the actual engine parameters but the altered piggyback parameters as well. You have the issue of trying to get an engine that was originally designed for NA to work properly with FI but you also have the same issue with the ECU. I've always treated them as a bandaid to be honest. They work OK for mild setups which are typically limited to non intercooled 9psi bolt on FI but when you push the boost into the range where intercooling is required the EM needs to be upgraded as well.

[Dzaster]

So manny did you do the 4efte electronics conversion?

As for 750cc's they are a bit larger for EMB. No impossible, but you will undoubtedly run rich at idle and lower RPM/off boost. Boostjunkie from TercelOnline used 750's with EMB and 4efte electronics and made 300+ hp.

Unless you get the EMU on the cheap you may as well go right for a standalone.

[SONICept]

yea im on the 4e-fte electronics !!

its always been weird though ive heard of stories of people idling funny ive never had that problem not even with the 550's on the afc and fcd..but i guess ill try it out first.. i can get a deal right now on a motec m4 for a real cheap price and its brand new so we'll see how it goes first..
i'd like to give it a shot with the emb till i cant no more :D

dzaster maybe you can send me a walk through on how to email you those maps im stuck on that i cant seem to do it lol :D
thanks buddy..

[Dzaster]

Oh right! Forgot about that request. :D

Um yeah:

- Sync computer to EMB unit with Support Tool open

- When current map from EMB is loaded into Support Tool click on File then select Save As and then choose the place you want to save the map and name it. Just put your name for file and save on "Desktop".

- Now sign into your email, and send the file as an attachment just as you would email a picture.

My email is dzaster96799@yahoo.com.

Try that, if you have trouble hit me up PM and I will get you my cell number and walk you through it over the phone as that's a little better in most cases.;)

[SONICept]

:D:cool: got it email sent sir!! thanks

[Dzaster]

Ok here is Manny's Map (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/766008/Emanage%20Blue/Maps/sonicept2.GSC)


I'll take a look at it, but is there anything in particular we should look at that seemed funky?

[Dzaster]

So here is your Airflow Adjustment Map(top) and Additional Injection Map(bottom).

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc340/dzaster96799/Tuning/MannyMAPfueling.png


Here is the first thing I noticed with the way this is setup. If you recall in a previous post of mine that I mentioned our cars couldn't use the Airflow Adjustment Map(AAM) in that way with our TPS(on/off only). So I'm not sure how the EMB is interpreting that where they have it removing 5% at 0 TPS, but then in that same RPM range down at the bottom of the TPS percentage they have 50% fuel removed. It could be that its pulling 50% of fuel.:confused:


Also in the Additional Injection Map it seems that they have it setup to tune off the stock 4efte MAP sensor. Do you have a Greddy 3 bar Map sensor installed with your EMB? If so they should be using that, if not it's just a useless piece of hardware.


Have you had these guys tune your car before? If so, was it the Emanage?

[Turbineguy]

TG is now officially clueless at this point. I can wrap my head around direct manipulation of the map data in one ECU but getting two of em to properly lie to each other is beyond my skill set.:o

(Mental note. Must learn how to tune different ECU types.)

[Dzaster]

not to worry, the tuner apparently felt the same so he opted not to use the Greddy MAP sensor. lol Joke!


But I just had an epiphany and why I didn't catch this before is beyond me. Okay, the map sensor is clamped at 3.44 volts(~5psi). So if the Additional Injection Map is using the stock MAP sensor to adjust for fuel, then I'm not sure how its doing it if the voltage is being clamped. I mean, it could be that its still reading the in, but what about when it goes beyond the stock MAP sensors capability? Pretty sure there lies the problem.

Manny, what PSI were you guys running to and around what psi of boost and RPM was it getting funny(sputtering)? You know maybe we can work on putting together a decent base map to work with.:cool:

[SONICept]

first off thanks dzaster and TG!! ok first time ever having this guy tuning it he's a god for hondas and he has set mad records in the all motor world and on boost anyways.. from what i recall dzaster he used the grey wire which would be the tps sig on the emb and tapped into the white map one to get a voltage reading for the tps on the emb.. its a mod i guess that popular with the miata turbo guys with the emb's..

also it was on the stock map aswell.. not the greddy one which i have now!!
and boost wise its on the 14psi spring so it was all good but around 4k and upwards were the turbo began to spool up n crank hard which was around 5500rpm thats were it cut out.. i also noticed all the afr's were in the low 11's and boost was going in cool as soon as the turbo started shooting upwards from 10 and up the afr's shot up to 15:1 and the sputter happend..

and i also see your point on that dzaster what your saying with the clamping voltage he's has stopping it at (5psi) and the ecu wasnt fueling no more than that...

[Dzaster]

Yeah, I'm really not talking smack about him so hopefully any of my jokes weren't taken that way.

So then you guys were tuning off the stock map sensor then. Maybe gotta get that Greddy sensor on an rockin to see how that changes things--as it should change things a bunch.

As far as the clamping thing, like I shared earlier, tuners tend to set it up that way for some reason and I'm sure they have their reasons.

And I need to research that little bit with the MAP signal to TPS. I think I've come across some discussion on it before on other forums, but I think I never put much thought into it--prolly because I was FOCUSED.

[maxgtr2000]

I just want to verify that you have the emanage spliced into the injectors and that the injector ground to the emanage is hooked up. Because the tuner is going off of the map sensor reading and additional injection is supposed to take place it seems like the only fuel it is getting is still from the 3.44v reading at the clamp and that's why it is going lean.

[SONICept]

yea the emanage is hooked up to the injectors aswell as the ignition harness its all cool and i do agree that the stock ecu is only fueling up to that 3.44v clamp to the map sensor.. so this time around it'll have the 3bar on there

yea ill look into that thing to dzaster its something like a load compensating kinda thing he told me about actually the tuner didnt do that a buddy of his that i know aswell was there to let him borrow his laptop and cable..but he asked me were i had the tps signal and i told him this ecu didnt so he said it would be kinda hard to get that thing going so he did that with the gray wire to the map signal im guessin the varying voltage from the map would also influence the tps signal as its getting a voltage reading from the map..

thanks so far guys very appriciated...

also two more things how much advance do you get on your ecu dzaster its the n/a 5efe ecu correct?? whats the total advance cuz i was considering running a 5efe ecu i know the timing is more agressive on them vs the 4efte ecu but i could also use that timing advance as i run c16 and 0 degress timing...

also for the 4efte ecu to get a tps signal to the emb i was thinking of this setup whats your take on it??? check it out with a universal variable tps???
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t341/hammerdyoda/LM7805PS.jpg
Specification
Input: 6V-24V DC
Output: 5V DC
Current: 100mA 1Amax (need a bigger heatsink for higer current

[Accord2nrz]

TG is now officially clueless at this point. I can wrap my head around direct manipulation of the map data in one ECU but getting two of em to properly lie to each other is beyond my skill set.:o

(Mental note. Must learn how to tune different ECU types.)


+1 I need to learn stand alone systems.

[Dzaster]

I converted over my electronics to 4efte as well. Yes the 5efe ECU is said to be mapped more aggressive, but I you'll loose out on the knock sensor as the 5efe don't have that. You'll also have to do something about lean "tip-in" as the stock ECU when not in WOT likes to maintain the 14.7AFR number. At partial throttle I found I was in boost and the 5efe ECU was tryna lean me out to stoich. The other thing with that is the 5efe ECU stock injector size is a bunch smaller than the 4efte (185 vs 295cc). You'd also have to deal with the new 5efe rev limiter.

You can do it, just that most these things need to be taken into account. I was actually able to run 12psi with it for a while taking into account all that, but did not like rich idle AFR as well as the aggressive timing it was said to have.

As for that device, are there some wiring details for it. looks interesting. In theory you could run without the 4efte TPS, it would run rich on cold start and be in a sort of safety mode and you can then mount a 5efe TPS and have that device mediate between TPS and EMB.

[Dzaster]

Manny, you get my PM reply?